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MANGO!
11-22-2007, 12:54 PM
Netherlands not so Dutch anymore
Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071121/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_identity_crisis)

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9130/netherlandsmuslimsah9.jpg
Women at a market in The Hague, the Netherlands

THE HAGUE, Netherlands - One was a Somali refugee, the other an Argentine investment banker. Both are now high-profile Dutch women challenging this country to rethink its national identity.

Princess Maxima, the Argentine-born wife of Crown Prince Willem Alexander, triggered a round of national soul-searching with a speech last month about what exactly it means to be Dutch in an age of mass migration. "The Netherlands is too complex to sum up in one cliche," she said. "A typical Dutch person doesn't exist."

Her comments have tapped into an unsettled feeling among many Dutch who fear traditional values have been eroded in a country roiled by a rise in Muslim extremism. It's a view espoused by Somali-born Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has turned her back on her Islamic roots.

Conservatives in this nation of 16 million say the long Dutch tradition of welcoming immigrants and putting little or no pressure on them to integrate undermines Western values. "Unfortunately, the debate about Dutch identity is too often held at a very trite and trivial level — as if the discussion is between Brussels sprouts and wooden shoes on the one hand, and couscous and caftans on the other," said Bart Jan Spruyt, founder of The Edmund Burke Foundation, a conservative think tank.

"What is really at stake, due to a frivolous immigration policies and decades of multicultural indifference, is the identity of the Dutch nation, Dutch history and culture as a part of the history of Western civilization."

Han van der Horst, author of a popular book on Dutch culture and history, staunchly defends the nation's live-and-let-live traditions. He points to an old Dutch saying that translates as "everybody is entitled to his own views," but hastens to add: "It doesn't mean you respect those views or share" them. That attitude historically allowed rigidly separated groupings known as "pillars" to form in society, meaning people of different faiths or political persuasion had their own churches, schools, newspapers, television and radio broadcasters and labor unions.

The system began to unravel in the 1960s, but some observers see the rise of Islam as a new pillar in Dutch society — mosques are springing up around the country and Muslims have their own schools and Web sites.

Hirsi Ali, the former Somali refugee, is one of the success stories of Dutch immigration policy, but also one of its fiercest critics. She condemns the Dutch tradition of multiculturalism, saying tolerance for the intolerant has provided a dangerous breeding ground for Islamic radicalism. Fear of such radicalism crystallized after the 2004 murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, Hirsi Ali's collaborator on the controversial movie "Submission" — a fictional study of abused Muslim women with scenes of near-naked women with Quranic texts engraved on their flesh.

Van Gogh's assailant shot the filmmaker and slit his throat on an Amsterdam street, leaving a letter pinned to his chest threatening the life of Hirsi Ali, who wrote the film's screenplay. Despite going into hiding with 24-hour police protection, Hirsi Ali continued to speak out. "Our migration policy is a failure," she told The Associated Press in an interview last year. "We used to pretend that we were a homogenous little country and that Holland is not a migration country. We have become a migration country like the United States."

After she arrived in the Netherlands as an asylum seeker fleeing an arranged marriage, Hirsi Ali quickly mastered the Dutch language, found a job and then went to university to earn a degree, eventually becoming a lawmaker for the conservative Liberal Party. She moved to the United States last year to take a job with the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington.

Since the Van Gogh slaying, the conservative government has reversed course on multiculturalism, passing a raft of laws that emphasize integration over cultural tolerance — most notably forcing foreigners to take citizenship courses and learn Dutch.

It's within that context that Princess Maxima's speech created such a stir, especially because the Dutch monarchy is not usually political. Dutch lawmakers from all sides of the political spectrum also have weighed in. Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende — one of three government ministers who approved the princess' speech before she delivered it — supported her views. Right-wing, anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders labeled it politically correct "tittle-tattle."

Mohammed Sini, the chairman of Islam and Citizenship, a national moderate Muslim organization, said there is a tendency in the Netherlands to group all Muslims together, bracketing moderates along with extremists. He expressed hope that the old Dutch spirit of live-and-let-live would prevail. "The key is respect — that you respect one another's values — that is a key Dutch trait and fortunately there are still many people here who carry on the Dutch culture in that way."

Angocachi
11-22-2007, 01:46 PM
Yah.

MANGO!
11-22-2007, 01:56 PM
Mass immigration is bad for the tourism industry. Who wants to go to the Netherlands to be around a bunch of Moroccans and blacks with minarets on every corner? :(

The Dutch can always visit Holland, Michigan (http://www.holland.org) and Dutch Village (http://www.dutchvillage.com/) if they want to enjoy their own culture. And if they get homesick for shish kebob, tawny skin and chicks in hijab, they can visit Dearborn (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/03/census.arabs.ap/index.html).

The Exorcist
11-22-2007, 09:13 PM
"The Netherlands is too complex to sum up in one cliche," she said. "A typical Dutch person doesn't exist."

She should read a history book


Conservatives in this nation of 16 million say the long Dutch tradition of welcoming immigrants and putting little or no pressure on them to integrate undermines Western values.

yep


Despite going into hiding with 24-hour police protection, Hirsi Ali continued to speak out. "Our migration policy is a failure," she told The Associated Press in an interview last year. "We used to pretend that we were a homogenous little country and that Holland is not a migration country. We have become a migration country like the United States."'

Yea, but in the U.S., we at least try and pressure our immigrants to assimilate



most notably forcing foreigners to take citizenship courses and learn Dutch.

:rockout:



there is a tendency in the Netherlands to group all Muslims together, bracketing moderates along with extremists.

yea, and it's annoying as hell. It's like lumping the Mormons, the Catholics, and the Baptists together simply because of the same "Christian" label. But I think it has to deal with the fact that a LARGE number of Muslims migrated into the country, almost unchecked. Cosmopolitanism is no way to run a country faced with mass immigration, especially on the basis and concept of Nation-States


Mass immigration is bad for the tourism industry. Who wants to go to the Netherlands to be around a bunch of Moroccans and blacks with minarets on every corner? :(

The Dutch can always visit Holland, Michigan (http://www.holland.org) and Dutch Village (http://www.dutchvillage.com/) if they want to enjoy their own culture. And if they get homesick for shish kebob, tawny skin and chicks in hijab, they can visit Dearborn (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/03/census.arabs.ap/index.html).

so true. Good to find there are at least SOME bastions of communities....but the sad thing is, that's in the U.S. and not in Europe

bociek
11-23-2007, 12:23 AM
yea, and it's annoying as hell. It's like clumping the Mormons, the Catholics, and the Baptists together simply because of the same "Christian" label. But I think it has to deal with the fact that a LARGE number of Muslims migrated into the country, almost unchecked. Cosmopolitanism is no way to run a country faced with mass immigration, especially on the basis and concept of Nation-States

Call me crazy, but I think they're getting lumped together because they themselves really like to lump themselves together.

Angocachi
11-23-2007, 12:49 AM
6% and suddenly indigenous Dutchdom is in danger of becoming extinct.
What will they do when it is at 12%? Surely the Netherlands will fall into the caliphate.

The Exorcist
11-23-2007, 12:50 AM
Call me crazy, but I think they're getting lumped together because they themselves really like to lump themselves together.

The Muslims or the Christians?

Hell, the Muslims are divided in many ways. Don't act surprised if an Saudi Muslim and a Somali Muslim can't seem to agree on anything

MANGO!
11-23-2007, 01:07 AM
No country should have foreigners make up more than 1-2% of their population. They don't get the more decent & educated Middle Eastern immigrants like we do in the states, they get a lot of parasitic, low IQ goatfuckers.

Angocachi
11-23-2007, 01:44 AM
No country should have foreigners make up more than 1-2% of their population.
Why not?

They don't get the more decent & educated Middle Eastern immigrants like we do in the states, they get a lot of parasitic, low IQ goatfuckers.
This is purposely done by the European governments on behalf of European business to provide them with a pool of cheap labor that can no longer be found in the indigenous European population in large enough numbers.

rasputin
11-23-2007, 01:58 AM
The international Amsterdam airport is polluted with taliban impersonators and wrapped up muslim "women".

Too sickening.

Jaybird
11-25-2007, 05:12 PM
Mass immigration is bad for the tourism industry. Who wants to go to the Netherlands to be around a bunch of Moroccans and blacks with minarets on every corner? :(

The Dutch can always visit Holland, Michigan (http://www.holland.org) and Dutch Village (http://www.dutchvillage.com/) if they want to enjoy their own culture. And if they get homesick for shish kebob, tawny skin and chicks in hijab, they can visit Dearborn (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/03/census.arabs.ap/index.html).

Major positive rep.

I was having this argument with some Eurotrash P.O.S. He was coming with the typical "Americans are all niggerized mongrels who lack pure (insert irrelevant tiny dictatorship here) blood". He was right.

NOT GERMAN!

http://www.karmabum.com/lederhosen.jpg

http://www.fiery-foods.com/images/ed/hillcountry/oktoberfest.jpg

http://www.oktoberfest.ca/user_files/one_image/miss_oktoberfest_2004_with_keg.jpg

GERMAN!

http://i3.tinypic.com/72qmjw3.jpg

http://www.br-online.de/land-und-leute/artikel/0607/13-zoe/foto/Zoe_Dirndl_500x300.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/197011962_956f45e8b1.jpg

Wotan
03-07-2008, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
yea, and it's annoying as hell. It's like clumping the Mormons, the Catholics, and the Baptists together simply because of the same "Christian" label. But I think it has to deal with the fact that a LARGE number of Muslims migrated into the country, almost unchecked. Cosmopolitanism is no way to run a country faced with mass immigration, especially on the basis and concept of Nation-States.



Call me crazy, but I think they're getting lumped together because they themselves really like to lump themselves together.


@bociek, I agree with this.

Muslims are not in Holland to become Dutch (not that they could ever become Dutch), but they are there to transform Holland into another third world dump. Muslims in any country outside of the middle east will lump themselves together.

Lenny
03-07-2008, 12:36 AM
@bociek, I agree with this.

Muslims are not in Holland to become Dutch (not that they could ever become Dutch), but they are there to transform Holland into another third world dump. Muslims in any country outside of the middle east will lump themselves together.The only true Dutch are germanic-blood Protestants :agree:

Pracownik stał
03-07-2008, 12:47 AM
The Dutch can always visit Holland, Michigan (http://www.holland.org) and Dutch Village (http://www.dutchvillage.com/) if they want to enjoy their own culture. And if they get homesick for shish kebob, tawny skin and chicks in hijab, they can visit Dearborn (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/03/census.arabs.ap/index.html).

Don't forget Frankenmuth (http://www.frankenmuth.org/), probably more German than Germany nowadays. All the times I've visited I've never seen a nigger there, despite the chicken dinners (http://www.bavarianinn.com/) they're famous for.

http://www.hubbell.org/images/biennialMI/reunio1.jpg

Lenny
03-07-2008, 12:53 AM
http://www.hubbell.org/images/biennialMI/reunio1.jpg
Bavaria is not Germany. We would hate it if every time foreigners referenced "Americans" they showed some loud mouthed idiot Texan like Jaybird or his cousin George W Bush :lmao:

Ketter
06-20-2008, 02:20 PM
k4X60SfNOmQ

MANGO!
06-20-2008, 07:25 PM
Bavaria is not Germany. We would hate it if every time foreigners referenced "Americans" they showed some loud mouthed idiot Texan like Jaybird or his cousin George W Bush :lmao:

George Bush isn't a Texan! WTF?! You're right in comparing Bavaria and Texas, though. Foreigners consider Texas to be the American stereotype and people outside Germany think the whole country is like Bavaria. Neither of these are really bad stereotypes, IMO. I'd rather foreigners think of America as one big Texas than one big NYC. As for Texans being loud-mouthed: way back when, I knew a few kids who moved here from Texas. At first they were extremely polite with teachers and adults ("No, ma'am, Yes sir.") In about 6 months they were acting like typical Detroit-area brats, talking back to adults.