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View Full Version : An Open Letter to Rudolph Giuliani


Breckinridge Elkins
11-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Posted by Ken Zaretzke on November 27, 2007

Dear Mayor Giuliani:


Your fidelity to your longstanding views on abortion is being scrutinized with rare intensity for so early in a presidential campaign. And no wonder: your pro-choice views have alarmed a veritable army of pro-lifers. These pro-lifers fear that, if you become president, you will use your power, especially in appointing Supreme Court justices, to solidify the pro-choice position. That raises their hackles, and now you’ve become their target. You’re heading for trouble, whether you admit it to yourself or not.


You might think you long ago covered the main bases in arriving at your pro-choice position. But did you? There is a neglected aspect of the abortion question that you may not have seriously considered—or have not considered at all. Perhaps reflection on it will lead you to moderate or revise your pro-choice position. This too-often neglected aspect concerns infanticide. You see, it is irrefutable that there is a logical connection between abortion and infanticide.


Infants lack the same capacities that fetuses lack. Neither fetuses nor infants have a sense of self, an awareness of their life as a continuing project, or an ability to reflect on anything or to communicate at a minimum level of meaningfulness. Only when a child is about 1-1/2 to 2 years old does it possess the capacities that we typically attribute to persons. When it is a toddler, and no longer an infant, it has finally arrived at the shores of self-consciousness. No one thinks it’s okay to kill a toddler.


Most pro-choicers agree that it’s wrong to kill infants. But they have no objective basis for thinking so. The arguments in favor of abortion are unable to stave off the conclusion that infanticide, too, is morally permissible. This is not to say that most pro-choicers favor infanticide; the Judeo-Christian shadow which still hangs over our culture leads them to regard infanticide with revulsion. But it is almost comical to see how pro-choice philosophers try to avoid biting the bullet. Their arguments against infanticide are weak and unconvincing, given their pro-abortion premises. Every one of those arguments seems to rely, in one way or another, on merely subjective considerations. Michael Tooley and Peter Singer are more honest. Both of these well-known philosophers argue for the moral permissibility of infanticide as well as abortion.


One pro-abortion philosopher criticizes infanticide this way: “Killing children or adults is wrong because it violates the respect they are due as creatures aware of, and caring about, their lives; killing infants, because it violates the love we give them as a means of making them into creatures aware of, and caring about, their lives. Killing children or adults is wrong because of properties they possess; killing infants, because of an emotion that we naturally and rightly have toward infants. Infants . . . do not possess in their own right a property that makes it wrong to kill them.” (Jeffrey Reiman, Abortion and the Ways We Value Human Life, Rowman and Littlefield 1999.)


Is infanticide really wrong only for these morally subjective reasons—which mirror the traditional Christian rationale for opposing cruelty to animals? Aren’t there any sturdier reasons for opposing infanticide, reasons having to do with certain objective characteristics of the infant? The answer, for the defenders of abortion, is no. Defenders of abortion are unable to distinguish the morality of abortion from the morality of infanticide except by recourse to what that great American philosopher, Huckleberry Finn, called “stretchers.”


If infanticide is wrong, it must be because of some property that the infant possesses. (Otherwise abortion would be morally worse than infanticide. In abortion, the fetus is deliberately attacked, and killed either directly or indirectly. By contrast, infanticide need not involve an actual attack. An infant can simply be left untended, and it will die.) In fact, if it is wrong, the wrongness of infanticide must depend on some essential property or attribute that the infant possesses. And that’s the rub: an infant has no essential properties that distinguish it from a fetus, or, for that matter, from an embryo.


Perhaps you’re not sure where all of this leads. If so, consider this passage from a particularly rigorous and honest pro-choice philosopher: “[T]he implications of the [pro-abortion/pro-infanticide] view are in fact even more shocking to common sense than I have so far acknowledged. Let me cite the worst-case example. Suppose that a woman who wants to be a single parent becomes impregnated via artificial insemination, but dies during childbirth. The newborn infant is healthy and so is an ideal candidate for adoption. But suppose that, in the same hospital . . . there are three other children, all five years old, who will soon die if they do not receive organ transplants. The newly orphaned infant turns out to have exactly the right tissue type: if it were killed, its organs could be used to save the three ailing children. According to the view I have developed, it ought to be permissible, if other things are equal, to sacrifice the newborn infant in order to save the other three children. For if the infant is below the threshold of respect, its time-relative interests can legitimately be weighed and traded off against the interests of others. And its time-relative interest in continuing to live is much weaker than that of each of the three older children; it is only one individual, whereas they are three; and it has no parents or relatives, while each of them, we may suppose, is cherished by its parents and others.” The author adds that “[Peter] Singer’s understanding of the morality of killing has the same implication.” (Jeff McMahan, The Ethics of Killing: Problems at the Margins of Life, Oxford 2002.)


As you are all too aware, people disagree about the morality of abortion. But you, as at least a nominal Catholic, should be particularly sensitive to, and apprehensive about, the infanticide-friendly logic of abortion. What this logic does, in effect, is give the benefit of the doubt, in the debate about abortion, to the pro-life side. True, those who are completely secularist in their thinking will not be offended by the philosophical kinship of abortion and infanticide. If you are a thoroughgoing secularist like them, it would be irrational for pro-lifers to support you.


If your Catholic faith means anything to you, and if you value truth, intellectual rigor, and moral consistency, you will make your peace with pro-lifers. At the very least, you will do nothing to give aid and succor to the pro-choice side. This means, at a minimum, that you will reject the idea—which you previously appeared to endorse—that precedent, or stare decisis, can be the basis for upholding Roe v. Wade. In assessing Roe, moral considerations carry far more weight than do legal conventions such as precedent. Precedent cannot bear the weight of legitimizing Roe.


The decision is yours, and while your presidential aspirations may well hang on it, it is essentially a moral and philosophical choice, not a political one. May your decision, whatever it is, exhibit the integrity (intellectual as well as personal) that Americans want to see from politicians, not least on the vexed issue of abortion.

http://www.takimag.com/site/article/an_open_letter_to_rudolph_giuliani/

gmork
11-27-2007, 05:08 PM
With all due respect, abortion is now off the table, and I suspect has been for some time now. The pro-lifers will either vote Republican -- whoever the nominee -- or stay home. And I suspect you'll find more doing the former than the latter.

And, c'mon, that "slippery slope" argument posited towards the end of the article was ridiculous. Newborns chopped up like chickens as spare parts? WTF?

Eddy
11-28-2007, 02:19 PM
Your fidelity to your longstanding views on abortion is being scrutinized with rare intensity for so early in a presidential campaign. And no wonder: your pro-choice views have alarmed a veritable army of pro-lifers. These pro-lifers fear that, if you become president, you will use your power, especially in appointing Supreme Court justices, to solidify the pro-choice position. That raises their hackles, and now you’ve become their target. You’re heading for trouble, whether you admit it to yourself or not

Yeah, right. Maybe for a minority of the GOP base. The majority just want a Strong Leader who will Defend Americans from Terrorists and Support Israel.

The media has created this big fiction about "values voters" who actually care about moral values. What they actually value most is Israel and dead ragheads, but the media are obfuscating or too polite (haha) to just say that.

Breckinridge Elkins
11-28-2007, 02:21 PM
You've been in Canada, too long. Out of touch.

Welcome back, btw...perhaps.

Eddy
11-28-2007, 02:28 PM
We'll see. My prediction is that the GOP base will flock to whoever wins the primaries, and that the Ghoul will win in spite of his stance on abortion and gays - because he's the biggest "nuke the ragheads and support Israel" candidate. Pat Robertson endorsed him for this exact reason, even without him winning primaries yet.

Breckinridge Elkins
11-28-2007, 02:49 PM
We'll see. My prediction is that the GOP base will flock to whoever wins the primaries, and that the Ghoul will win in spite of his stance on abortion and gays - because he's the biggest "nuke the ragheads and support Israel" candidate. Pat Robertson endorsed him for this exact reason, even without him winning primaries yet.

As I said, with no offense, intended, you're out of touch.

Giuliani isn't leading, in any state he should be.

gmork
11-28-2007, 03:07 PM
We'll see. My prediction is that the GOP base will flock to whoever wins the primaries,

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, unfortunately, but I believe quite a few "values" type Repubs have stayed home, in '76, '88 and probably '96 as well. All losses for the GOP. Whether their absence at the polls was the direct or only main cause of the GOP losses is arguable, certainly, but it definitely hurt.

What the GOP is going to need if Rudy is the nominee is a Hannity/Limbaugh/all their mini-mes dog and pony show of epic proportions to see that this does not happen again, that Ma & Pa Kettel show up at the polls and pull the "R" lever, like they're supposed to. (And assuming Rudy's elected, to shush the inevitable disappointment as the backwoods rubes get ignored and laughed at once again.) But, I'm thinking their ability to pull off this subterfuge is fading as time goes on. I mean, eight years of Repub control of the White House and several years in charge of both legislative wings at the same time has given these people exactly what?

and that the Ghoul will win in spite of his stance on abortion and gays - because he's the biggest "nuke the ragheads and support Israel" candidate.

You think he can beat the Dem nominee, whoever it is? Possible, I suppose, but I believe we're now on the leading edge of the demographic tsunami that the VDare types have been predicting for so long. If the Dems can hold onto West Virginia (mostly by utshaying upyay on gun control, at least until in office) while at the same time taking Florida, the Repubs are cooked. As in down in flames. And I think both states are within reach of any of the top three Dems...in fact it wouldn't surprise me to see Edwards make a run somehow, since he's probably easier for voters in those two states to swallow than either Clinton or Obama.

Pat Robertson endorsed him for this exact reason, even without him winning primaries yet.

Pat Robertson is basically a whore; spreading his ass cheeks for whomever he thinks will let him spend the night in the Lincoln bedroom is part and parcel of his modus operandi. Which is neither here nor there in my eyes for purposes of this discussion, once you've figured out his game. The important thing is, I don't think he's really capable of delivering the votes any longer. The Evangelical "community" is badly fractured even now, and a Rudy nomination would make things much worse. The Jesus Brigade's Humpty Dumpty is off the wall, and I'm skeptical they'll ever get it back together again. Hell, Robertson's "endorsement" might even hurt Rudy, if it appears there's a chance the Repubs will take California (unlikely, but marginally possible.)

Eddy
11-28-2007, 03:40 PM
I'm completely aware that Robertson and his ilk are whoring slimeballs. It is the fact that people like him and Falwell ever had substantial influence amongst conservative Christians that makes me very cynical about the motives or intelligence of these people. We can ask what they've substantially gained under Reagan and either of the Bush's and come up with not much beyond symbolic motions, speeches that cater to them, and a feeling that "their guys" are on top and kicking ass around the world to further their apocalyptic Good vs Evil fantasies.

I'm going to clarify my statement about the Ghoul winning. I meant the primaries. As for general election, that depends more on who has the edge with the vote machine shenanigans rather than popularity. For all the strict "moral values" folks he loses, he still gains amongst all the people who's main issue is being "tough" as possible on Teh War on Terra, not abortion and gay marriage... and I think these people and businessmen (not exactly morally rigid types) are more important to the GOP base.

We'll see. I've just been in a very cynical state of mind about these people.

Jake Featherston
11-28-2007, 10:34 PM
We'll see. My prediction is that the GOP base will flock to whoever wins the primaries, and that the Ghoul will win in spite of his stance on abortion and gays - because he's the biggest "nuke the ragheads and support Israel" candidate. Pat Robertson endorsed him for this exact reason, even without him winning primaries yet.

Yeah, that's probably about what will happen (I'm still hoping for the Ron Paul Miracle, which could happen, but probably won't). A few weeks ago, I would have replied that Romney is going to be the nominee, based on his strengths in both Iowa and New Hampshire; he wins those first two, where he's been ahead in the polls for months, and the rest of the GOP would just sort of slavishly vote for the new front-runner. But now it looks like Mike Fuckabee of Arkansas (official state monicer: "The Rickets State") will likely win in Iowa, thus monkey wrenching Willard M. Romney's Hillaryesque vote-for-me-'cause-eveyone-else-seems-to-be nomination strategy.

Ghouliani and Hillarious are the two candidates* most likely to do the most harm to America, so it figures they'd be the nominees.


*John McCain could probably make that list, but he's got less of a chance than Ron Paul to be the GOP nominee; he's practically down there with Biden, Dodd, and Tancredo.

Jake Featherston
11-28-2007, 10:37 PM
Giuliani isn't leading, in any state he should be.

When Huckabee wins Iowa, Ghouliani will probably take New Hampshire (where he's running second - unless of course Ron Paul wins New Hampshire). Ghoulianai is leading in (the pre-February 5th state of) Florida (not surprisingly). I like how Florida has finally replaced California as "the state with all the fuckheads in it."

Jake Featherston
11-28-2007, 11:04 PM
I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, unfortunately, but I believe quite a few "values" type Repubs have stayed home, in '76, '88 and probably '96 as well.

I believe in 1976, the "values voters" actally went with Carter (at the time, it was a very big deal that Carter identified himself as "a Born-Again Christian," while I think Carter may also have been seen as less hostile to the pro-Life agenda than Ford). Even in 1980, Carter only lost Alabama to Reagan by 1.3% of the vote (this was not anomalous; Carter nearly carried most of the ex-Confederate states in 1980, although only actually won in his home state of Georgia - John Anderson only scored 1.2% of the Alabama vote, so that wasn't the cause ie. Carter managed 47.5% of the 1980 Alabama vote in his own right, thus suggesting he had real appeal to the sort of often-Southern voter the media is attempting to reference when they say "values voter").

In 1988, I believe the evidence is fairly conclusive that the "values voters" turned out to vote for Bush, thus delivering such a massive Electoral College blow to Dukakis. Dukakis did manage to win back about half of the "Reagan Democrats" who voted against Mondale in 1984, but a lot of these people weren't of the religiously-based "values voter" stereotype, but were more akin to the followers of George Wallace, rather than Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson; the biblical crowd largely stuck with Bush in '88.

In 1996, you may have a point; It seems doubtful only 41% of the potential electorate preferred a Republican to Bill Clinton, but when you factor in that Republican candidate being Bob Dole, it makes sense that some of the 1994 GOP tsunami voters chose to stay home. Of course, Ross Perot got 8.5% of the vote in 1996, but most data seems to indicate that Perot's support came from disaffected Democrats in that particular year (unlike 1992, where more of it came from disaffected Republicans; the disaffected tend to focus their ire on the incumbent, after all).

If the Dems can hold onto West Virginia (mostly by utshaying upyay on gun control, at least until in office) while at the same time taking Florida, the Repubs are cooked. As in down in flames.

West Virgina only counts for five EVs (out of 538 total; 270 needed to win). West Virginia did give Bush the margin for victory over Gore in 2000, but its unlikely to play a similar role in 2008. Oddly enough, Kerry actually came within striking distance of victory in Virginia in 2004, while getting totally wiped out in West Virginia, so we may see the Democratic stalwart state of West Virginia move irrevocably into the GOP column, while the former GOP stronghold of Virginia (the only Southern state to vote for Ford in 1976) may begin to slide into the Democratic column (as some would suggest has begun to happen with the election of Jim Webb).

Jake Featherston
11-28-2007, 11:13 PM
I'm going to clarify my statement about the Ghoul winning. I meant the primaries. As for general election, that depends more on who has the edge with the vote machine shenanigans rather than popularity. For all the strict "moral values" folks he loses, he still gains amongst all the people who's main issue is being "tough" as possible on Teh War on Terra, not abortion and gay marriage... and I think these people and businessmen (not exactly morally rigid types) are more important to the GOP base.

While electoral fraud clearly played a major role in 2004, where it delivered Ohio's EV delegation to the Bush camp (thus giving us de facto President Bush, as opposed to President-Elect-but-not-serving Kerry), I think its significance has been exaggerated ie., Bush couldn't have gotten away with that except for the fact that even without electoral fraud, he still very nearly won. If you get 49% of the vote, electoral fraud can push you to victory, but you need to get nearly there in your own right first.

The short version is, if the Democrats nominate Barack Obama, John Edwards, or Bill Richardson, they clearly win against any Republican (except maybe Ron Paul, who could be a much stronger general election candidate than he is as a primary candidate). If the Democrats nominate Hillarious, they'll lose to anyone but Ghouliani. If its a Hillarious vs. Ghouliani contest, it will be very close (and thus likely determined by electoral fraud).

Ghouliani strikes me as a very crooked and ham-fisted sort of corrupt politico, of basically the same stripe as the buffoonish Bernard Kerick. If Ghouliani cheats his way into the Oval Office, it will probably be done in a very low-brow manner, complete with thugs with Neapolitan and Sicilian surnames. If so, that just might not be able to escape the notice of the general public, in the way the 2004 Ohio debacle was able to.

ZOG
11-28-2007, 11:30 PM
Yeah, right. Maybe for a minority of the GOP base. The majority just want a Strong Leader who will Defend Americans from Terrorists and Support Israel.

The media has created this big fiction about "values voters" who actually care about moral values. What they actually value most is Israel and dead ragheads, but the media are obfuscating or too polite (haha) to just say that.

Where the fuck have you been?

ZOG
11-28-2007, 11:32 PM
While electoral fraud clearly played a major role in 2004, where it delivered Ohio's EV delegation to the Bush camp (thus giving us de facto President Bush, as opposed to President-Elect-but-not-serving Kerry)

I tend to doubt this, electoral fraud needs local machines on the ground...

The republicans don't have that many.

PseudoCop
11-29-2007, 01:39 AM
The short version is, if the Democrats nominate Barack Obama, John Edwards, or Bill Richardson, they clearly win against any Republican (except maybe Ron Paul, who could be a much stronger general election candidate than he is as a primary candidate). If the Democrats nominate Hillarious, they'll lose to anyone but Ghouliani. If its a Hillarious vs. Ghouliani contest, it will be very close (and thus likely determined by electoral fraud).

Ghouliani strikes me as a very crooked and ham-fisted sort of corrupt politico, of basically the same stripe as the buffoonish Bernard Kerick. If Ghouliani cheats his way into the Oval Office, it will probably be done in a very low-brow manner, complete with thugs with Neapolitan and Sicilian surnames. If so, that just might not be able to escape the notice of the general public, in the way the 2004 Ohio debacle was able to.

President Obama? Barack Husein Obama? No fuckin' way my friend...

Giuliani is pragmatic and vicious, I've never seen any evidence of corruption in the classic sense of the word, Bernie notwithstanding.

Jake Featherston
11-29-2007, 07:52 AM
President Obama? Barack Husein Obama? No fuckin' way my friend...

I don't think the name thing is going to be that big a deal. It could be, but I doubt it.

PseudoCop
11-29-2007, 08:50 AM
Everthing else will be a big deal though- his coal burning mother, his black dad, his foreign upbringing, joining a black church and the fact that he has no real experience to speak of will add up.

Part of me wants him to win if Ron Paul doesn't- although I'd rather have Al Sharpton run under the slogan that SST suggested- "Let's just get it over with."

Eddy
11-29-2007, 01:45 PM
While electoral fraud clearly played a major role in 2004, where it delivered Ohio's EV delegation to the Bush camp (thus giving us de facto President Bush, as opposed to President-Elect-but-not-serving Kerry)

I tend to doubt this, electoral fraud needs local machines on the ground...

The republicans don't have that many.

You should read Greg Palast's research on the matter. There are numerous layers of "fixing" going on at the same time.

Oh, and the Diebold board of directors are umm... slightly partisan.

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ZOG
11-29-2007, 11:47 PM
If they do too bad they rig the election for douchebag candidates like Bush...

Rig it for Paul or Tancredo...