Major ancient Scythian city discovered in central Asia (Kyrgyzstan)

[Lenny]

Advanced Scythian city discovered in Central Asia

MOSCOW: Archaeologists have discovered the remains of a 2,500-year-old advanced civilization at the bottom of Lake Issyk Kul in the Kyrgyz Mountains.

(click for location)

According to a report in RIA Novosti, the team consisted of Kyrgyz historians, led by Vladimir Ploskikh, vice president of the Kyrgyz Academy of Sciences, and Russian colleagues, like historian Svetlana Lukashova.

The expedition resulted in sensational finds, including the discovery of major settlements, presently buried underwater.

The data and artifacts obtained, which are currently under study, apply the finishing touches to the many years of exploration in the lake, made by seven previous expeditions.

The discovery consisted of formidable walls, some stretching for 500 meters-traces of a large city with an area of several square kilometers.

Other findings included Scythian burial mounds, eroded by waves over the centuries, and numerous well preserved artifacts : bronze battleaxes, arrowheads, self-sharpening daggers, objects discarded by smiths, casting molds, and a faceted gold bar, which was a monetary unit of the time.

All these discoveries suggest that the ancient city was a bustling metropolis in its time.

Some artifacts are in fact so stunning, that they point towards an advanced civilization.

For example, a 2,500 year-old ritual bronze cauldron was found on the bottom of the lake. The subtlety of its craftsmanship is amazing. Such excellent quality of joining details together can only be obtained presently by metalwork in an inert gas.

Also of superb workmanship are bronze mirrors, festive horse harnesses, and many other objects. Articles identified as the world's oldest extant coins were also found underwater-gold wire rings used as small change and a large hexahedral goldpiece.

Side by side with the settlements are remnants of ritual complexes of times immemorial, dwellings and household outbuildings.

According to the researchers, the findings lead to the speculation that the local people at that time had a socio-economic system hitherto unknown to historians. As a blending of nomadic and settled life, it either gradually evolved into something different or-more likely-was destroyed by one of the many local floods.

Lake Issyk Kul has played a tremendous role since the inception of human history due to its geographic location at the crossing of Indo-Aryan and other nomadic routes. Archeologists found traces of many religions here-Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/A...ow/2658962.cms

[Lenny]

Scythians
The Scythians were a group of nomadic tribes, originally from modern-day Iran, who are believed to have invaded southern Russia and the Ukraine in the 7th century BC. The Cimmerians who originally lived in that area probably assimilated with them. The Scythians knew bronze and made beautiful jewellry of gold and silver, they also took the scalps of defeated enemies and hung them on their bridle reins, when they had collected enough scalps they made a mantle of them that they wore to show how many enemies they had slain.

The Scythians themselves disappeared from history in the 4th century BC. The Sarmatians are believed to be direct descendants of the Scythians.

The Sarmatians were originally called "Sauromatians" and were a nomadic people of Iranic origin, who probably descended from a Scythian tribe of the same name. They initially lived east of the river Don along the Caspian sea and Aral lake, in what is now known as Kazakhstan and Afghanistan. Later they crossed the river Don and wandered around in the land between the rivers Don and Tisza (Theiss), which roughly encompasses modern day Rumania and the Ukraine, though the Romans called all lands east of the river Vistula (Weichsel) and the Carpathian mountains "Sarmatia", which may indicate that they also expanded to other areas.
In the 4th century AD the Sarmatians became an increasing threat to the Germanic tribe the Goths, who eventually attacked them and caused so many Sarmatian defeats that the Sarmatian kings had to ask the Romans for help. In 332AD, the Romans defeated a Gothic army which gave the Sarmatians some relief. But instead of being grateful, the Sarmatians then turned on the Romans and in the 2nd half of the 4th century AD and the period thereafter, they undertook many plunder raids into the Roman empire.
The most important Sarmatian tribes were the Aorsians, the Roxolanians, the Alanians (Alans), and the Iazyges. The Alans later joined the Huns and probably became the ancestors of the modern Ossetians, while another part of them migrated to Spain where they were destroyed by Germanic tribes. It is not entirely known what happened to most other Sarmatian tribes, but they are believed to have been driven eastwards by the Huns and expanding Germanic and Slavonic tribes. A part of them may have also assimilated with the population of eastern Europe.

Language: the Sarmatians spoke an Iranian language that was probably related to Scythian. The Indo-Iranian languages are of Indo-European origin and can be divided into Indic (from which Sanskrit, Hindi, and other languages originate) and Iranian. The Iranian language eventually separated into Avestan (from which Pashto originates), Old Persian (from which Persian/Farsi--the modern language of Iran, Kurdish, Ossetic, Baluchi, and some other languages originate), and Scythian (which is nowadays extinct).

Appearance: Herodotus describes the Sarmatians' physical appearance as blond, stout and tanned; in short, pretty much as the Scythians and Thracians were seen by the other classical authors.


(NOTE: The city was discovered in the easternmost portion of Scythian territory, near the 'z' in Yuezhi)

http://www.geocities.com/reginheim/sarmatians.html

[6KILLER]

Originally Posted by Lenny

Scythians

In the 4th century AD the Sarmatians became an increasing threat to the Germanic tribe the Goths, who eventually attacked them and caused so many Sarmatian defeats that the Sarmatian kings had to ask the Romans for help. In 332AD, the Romans defeated a Gothic army which gave the Sarmatians some relief. But instead of being grateful, the Sarmatians then turned on the Romans and in the 2nd half of the 4th century AD and the period thereafter, they undertook many plunder raids into the Roman empire.
The most important Sarmatian tribes were the Aorsians, the Roxolanians, the Alanians (Alans), and the Iazyges. The Alans later joined the Huns and probably became the ancestors of the modern Ossetians, while another part of them migrated to Spain where they were destroyed by Germanic tribes. It is not entirely known what happened to most other Sarmatian tribes, but they are believed to have been driven eastwards by the Huns and expanding Germanic and Slavonic tribes. A part of them may have also assimilated with the population of eastern Europe.

These people didn't just vanish, the Iazyges genetic DNA is still traceable among the Scots.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....eivers_dna.htm

One third of William the Conqueror's invasion force was composed of ethnic Alans. The Duke of Brittany, the highest-ranking Alan in the region, offered to finance one third of William's forces, under the command of his son, (and William's future son-in-law) Count Alan Fergant (Alan of the Red Hair). These troops are known in the English history books as the Bretton Knights, who twice at Hastings led unsuccessful charges into the English forces, only to withdraw in panic with their enemy in fierce pursuit. Unfortunately for the English army, these panicked Alan horsemen "retreated" right between two ranks of Norman infantry and archers, where their defenseless English pursuers were massacred. The classic Alan "feigned retreat" worked flawlessly twice in one day, leaving Harold's forces weak and demoralized, easy prey for William's infantry. William left Hastings in command of the whole of England, and he rewarded his loyal Alan allies with Dukedoms, Earldoms, and a collection of minor titles.

http://pages.interlog.com/~ndallen/A...me_history.htm

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by 6Killer

These people didn't just vanish, the Iazyges genetic DNA is still traceable among the Scots.

How could they possibly reconstruct ancient Iazyge (or any other ancient tribe's) genetics, to be able to say with any sureness that they left a significant genetic footprint here or there?

ethnic Alans

6Killer, I seem to remember you posted a lot about Alans in a thread back in August-

The Origin of the Pre-Imperial Iranian Peoples, including post five The History of the ALLEN Surname.

The ancient Scythians, Sarmatians, and other ancient Iranic peoples must have been very closely related to the mysterious and somewhat-mythical Aryan tribes of Vedic fame. While their kinsmen invaded India, the proto-Scythians "stayed home" in Central Asia (analogous to Saxons invading England while other Saxons stayed in Germania). These Iranic tribes of Central Asia declined and were eventually destroyed by Mongol invasions, who killed, raped, and resettled their way to radically altering central-Asian genetics. Today Central Asians are mostly mongoloid or mixed mongoloid-caucasoid, with very few people from the "stans" of Central Asia being overwhelmingly of ancient Scythian/'Iranic' blood. It is an ignored atrocity of history.

[6KILLER]

Гробница алтайского скифа (The Tomb of the Scythian Prince)
Более двух тысячелетий назад в степях Центральной Азии скифы оставили после себя не города, не дворцы, а курганы, в которых хоронили умерших вместе с их имуществом. Кем были скифы - варварами или золотых дел мастерами? Какие тайны откроет ученым найденная могила скифа, чью судьбу они пытаются разгадать?
Выпущено: Франция, 2000

Скифы не имели письменности, их культура дошла до нас через сочинения персов, китайцев и греков. Основным источником информации стали труды греческого историка Геродота, жившего в четрвёртом веке до нашей эры. Но эти отрывочные сведения не могут полностью востановить жизнь скифских племён, в частности, восточного племени саков, к которым принадлежал человек похороненный в алтайском кургане. Скифы, саки и другие родственные им племена, олицетворяли собою архетип чужеродцев, тех кто жил не так как остальные народы. У них не было ни домов, ни земли, они предпочитали скотоводство земледелию, их обычаи считались абсолютно варварскими...

French documental about eastern Scythians, the Sakas.

The Tomb of the Scythian Prince (1/5)

[6KILLER]

Originally Posted by Lenny

How could they possibly reconstruct ancient Iazyge (or any other ancient tribe's) genetics, to be able to say with any sureness that they left a significant genetic footprint here or there?

After their defeat by Marcus Aurelius the Iazyges provide Rome with 8000 heavy cataphracts, 5500 were posted to Britain to deal with the Picts and Caledonians, the remainder were posted to Brittany and Aquitaine to deal with the Basque problem. Many of the Border Reiver clan members who have participated in the Border Reiver DNA project are closer related to test groups among the Ossets and Jazones than they are to other Britons.

[The Exorcist]

Originally Posted by Lenny

These Iranic tribes of Central Asia declined and were eventually destroyed by Mongol invasions, who killed, raped, and resettled their way to radically altering central-Asian genetics. Today Central Asians are mostly mongoloid or mixed mongoloid-caucasoid, with very few people from the "stans" of Central Asia being overwhelmingly of ancient Scythian/'Iranic' blood. It is an ignored atrocity of history.

Don't get me started on how greatly exaggerated historical accounts of monstrosities were. Same shit with Vlad the Impaler.

They all say "yes, the Mongolians raped every breathing thing on the planet, as did the Arabs." What the fuck are those guys talking about? That's not even remotely fucking possible, especially at a time when there weren't Census reports or sufficient statistical data during the time. Don't forget about the common practice of abortions. People always forget that you have to be pregnant first to be born whenever they recount historical tales.

"Yes, you see, even back then abortions were held as 100% wrong even in the face of a rapist attacker, and since everyone subject to military rule was raped (including the men and their livestock), everyone became pregnant and had their DNA destroyed all due to one generation of Mongolians that raped at least 35% of a given population. Sex camps? Yes those existed (some of them actually did) and everyone knows that the women in those camps and their Mongolian masters didn't commit abortions because pregnant chicks turn on Mongol armies."

Yes, that's right people, Iran is one big ass Mongolian country. Fucking retarded.

Seriously folks, if you want to make-upe facts, then go right on ahead, but as you do that, don't forget to label the Russians and East Europeans as Mongoloid as well, eh? Oh yes, don't forget that the French are now Germans/American/English, that the Germans are God knows what, the English are French, and everyone from Mexico and below are white Spanish.

I'm talking about how people believe that average populations and their DNA can drasticically change so easily. If that was the case, then something other than "they're of Mayan, Aztec, and Incan descent" should explain why so many Mexicans and native South Americans are so brown.

You do see SOME kids who apparantly have some Mongolian influence but they're widely spread out and we're not sure as to how Mongolian or Iranian they are. Remember that some Mongols brought some of their family under Khan rule and people some people were spread around during his rule. Hell, all it took to leave a country back then were two working feet, and even then, you can still get a donkey or a mule.

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by The Exorcist

They all say "yes, the Mongolians raped every breathing thing on the planet, as did the Arabs." What the fuck are those guys talking about? That's not even remotely fucking possible, especially at a time when there weren't Census reports or sufficient statistical data during the time.
[...]
You do see SOME kids who apparently have some Mongolian influence but they're widely spread out and we're not sure as to how Mongolian or Iranian they are. Remember that some Mongols brought some of their family under Khan rule and people some people were spread around during his rule. Hell, all it took to leave a country back then were two working feet, and even then, you can still get a donkey or a mule.

The race-replacement of the ancient peoples of Central Asia is a fact that can be observed by the naked eye. How it happened precisley can be debated, but that it happened cannot.

An historical fact that we know to be true is caucasoid Indo-European speaking "Iranics" (like the Scythians) populated Central Asia ("the -stans") since ancient times... Indeed, this region is thought by most scholars to be the pre-historic Urheimat of the Indo-European-speaking people. An equally true fact ascertained by the naked eye, is that today the populations of many of the Central Asian states are either overwhelmingly mongoloid in appearance, or mixed caucasoid-mongoloid, with relatively few still the overwhelming blood descendants of the ancient Scythian and related peoples who dwelt there. The out and out race-replacement did not occur anywhere except Central Asia (through various means, rape and mongols-taking-native-wives were part, perhaps not a major one. Also parts were mongol inducement of native tribes to migrate/flee their home-region in fear, killing large numbers of natives in battle/conquest, and mongols settling their own people).

[Inventor]

Originally Posted by The Exorcist

Don't get me started on how greatly exaggerated historical accounts of monstrosities were. Same shit with Vlad the Impaler.

Well, considering that many of those Central Asian tribes were nomadic, its not a leap to say that many were displaced by Mongol invasions. Many of them could have banded with stronger tribes, much like the Germanic tribes that joined the Huns.

I think you're confusing Iranian tribes with Iran. I think he meant tribes like Scythians and Alans.

[The Exorcist]

Originally Posted by Inventor of the Internet

Well, considering that many of those Central Asian tribes were nomadic, its not a leap to say that many were displaced by Mongol invasions. Many of them could have banded with stronger tribes, much like the Germanic tribes that joined the Huns.

I think you're confusing Iranian tribes with Iran. I think he meant tribes like Scythians and Alans.

I was primarily using Iran as an example, although now I see that his comment was more area-specific in primarily Central Asia. I guess another explanation for the area is that large numbers of the nomadic tribes left the area or migrated out of there to get away from the Mongols. But to say that they were all "replaced" so to speak as to suggest that their DNA is replaced is a bit far-fetched for me.